Comments on: The PP loves victims of terrorism http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/ Barcelona & Catalonia blog covering politics, culture, society and more Thu, 09 Sep 2010 11:20:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: The new ‘anti-nacionalismo’ at thebadrash.com - blog by Tom Clarke in Barcelona http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-349 The new ‘anti-nacionalismo’ at thebadrash.com - blog by Tom Clarke in Barcelona Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:49:49 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-349 [...] Spanish-language blog, El Siglo de las Luces, has a well written and interesting post about moves by the Spanish right to expand its influence by forming and supporting supposed NGOs and pressure groups around the country. These groups traditionally start out as single-issue before becoming more and more embroiled in the two topics which seem to excite the political extremes in this country: left versus right; and the question of nationalism (this term usually only referring to Catalan and Basque nationalism/separatism. The classic example of this is the AVT (Association of Victims of Terrorism). Ostensibly formed as a support/pressure group for victims of ETA and their families, the AVT long ago became a sort of rent-a-mob for high profile, low impact demonstrations in Madrid where protesters gnash their teeth and do the whole Two Minutes Hate thing. I’ve written about the AVT before (I stand by everything I wrote six months ago) and currently words fail me to describe how bitterly I dislike their nasty mixture of pressure politics, rhetoric and sheer anti-reason. There is simply no point in attempting an ordinary criticism of the AVT because they are so astoundingly out of it. Sometimes, I think it’s part of a clever plot to utterly confound critics: where do I start? they’ve opened a battle against logic on so many fronts that I get headaches just trying to list them. [...] [...] Spanish-language blog, El Siglo de las Luces, has a well written and interesting post about moves by the Spanish right to expand its influence by forming and supporting supposed NGOs and pressure groups around the country. These groups traditionally start out as single-issue before becoming more and more embroiled in the two topics which seem to excite the political extremes in this country: left versus right; and the question of nationalism (this term usually only referring to Catalan and Basque nationalism/separatism. The classic example of this is the AVT (Association of Victims of Terrorism). Ostensibly formed as a support/pressure group for victims of ETA and their families, the AVT long ago became a sort of rent-a-mob for high profile, low impact demonstrations in Madrid where protesters gnash their teeth and do the whole Two Minutes Hate thing. I've written about the AVT before (I stand by everything I wrote six months ago) and currently words fail me to describe how bitterly I dislike their nasty mixture of pressure politics, rhetoric and sheer anti-reason. There is simply no point in attempting an ordinary criticism of the AVT because they are so astoundingly out of it. Sometimes, I think it's part of a clever plot to utterly confound critics: where do I start? they've opened a battle against logic on so many fronts that I get headaches just trying to list them. [...]

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]]> By: Alberto http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-348 Alberto Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:40:57 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-348 Thanks, Tom. I'll try and be more link-savvy next time. Graeme: I think the 1998-9 talks were a big mistake. The underlying causes and implications of that ceasefire were a bit different, though, as I'm sure you're aware. I also thought it was wrong and unnecessarily divisive to mix up the 11-M hangover with the anti-ETA theme at the demo last Saturday. Thanks, Tom. I'll try and be more link-savvy next time.

Graeme: I think the 1998-9 talks were a big mistake. The underlying causes and implications of that ceasefire were a bit different, though, as I'm sure you're aware.

I also thought it was wrong and unnecessarily divisive to mix up the 11-M hangover with the anti-ETA theme at the demo last Saturday.

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]]> By: Tom http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-347 Tom Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:20:54 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-347 To insert links, just use a little html hocus-pocus (that is to say, use a standard 'a' tag). By default, any comment which includes a link is held for moderation. I'm toying with getting a better interface for the comments, but I'm worried that it would mess up my AJAX formatting. To insert links, just use a little html hocus-pocus (that is to say, use a standard 'a' tag). By default, any comment which includes a link is held for moderation. I'm toying with getting a better interface for the comments, but I'm worried that it would mess up my AJAX formatting.

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]]> By: Graeme http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-346 Graeme Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:53:14 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-346 So presumably Alberto you think they were doing the wrong thing in 1998 when the PP negotiated with ETA - because at that time the people who now oppose any negotiations were fully in favour of it. Incidentally, where do you stand on the Great Conspiracy, are you with the bumbling conservatives that seem to believe 11-M was planned by Rubalcaba in collusion with ETA? So presumably Alberto you think they were doing the wrong thing in 1998 when the PP negotiated with ETA – because at that time the people who now oppose any negotiations were fully in favour of it. Incidentally, where do you stand on the Great Conspiracy, are you with the bumbling conservatives that seem to believe 11-M was planned by Rubalcaba in collusion with ETA?

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]]> By: Alberto http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-345 Alberto Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:44:48 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-345 Hi Tom, The bit of the original post I disagree with is that you impute evil intentions to one set of people and virtuous intentions to another set of people, purely, it seems, on the basis of your own prejudices. I also disagree strongly with your suggestion that ETA violence is 'provoked' by the attitudes - however debatable - of a party that doesn't itself use political violence. In a democracy there is no justification for anyone to kill their political opponents, and the moral responsibility for the killings is ETA's alone. Thanks for your concern about whether I have nightmares often. I confess that it's a nightmare to defend a party of bumbling traditionalist conservatives, but on this particular issue they're the only ones doing the decent thing... along with some specially brave mavericks on the left. PS How do you insert links in these comments? Hi Tom,

The bit of the original post I disagree with is that you impute evil intentions to one set of people and virtuous intentions to another set of people, purely, it seems, on the basis of your own prejudices.

I also disagree strongly with your suggestion that ETA violence is 'provoked' by the attitudes – however debatable – of a party that doesn't itself use political violence. In a democracy there is no justification for anyone to kill their political opponents, and the moral responsibility for the killings is ETA's alone.

Thanks for your concern about whether I have nightmares often. I confess that it's a nightmare to defend a party of bumbling traditionalist conservatives, but on this particular issue they're the only ones doing the decent thing… along with some specially brave mavericks on the left.

PS How do you insert links in these comments?

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]]> By: Tom http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-344 Tom Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:52:49 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-344 maybe <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.eitb24.com/portal/eitb24/noticia/en/politics/etas-statement-eta-ratifies-compromise-to-take-the-process-to-the?itemId=D37049&cl=/eitb24/politica&idioma=en">this</a> is the statement we were waiting for? Well, at least it's confirmation of a commitment to the peace-process. Which is a hell of a lot more than the PP are offering. maybe this is the statement we were waiting for? Well, at least it's confirmation of a commitment to the peace-process. Which is a hell of a lot more than the PP are offering.

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]]> By: coco http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-343 coco Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:42:30 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-343 The problem with this whole confrontation and crispation of the actual political situation in Spain is the sole thought. You are WITH us or AGAINST us. There is no place for moderate positions. It is not possible to be a moderate. This is seem as a sign of weakness, and so you deserve any political entrustment. I believe the actual Zapatero government has brought a new way of making politics to this country, and this cannot be denied, not even for those who may not agree with the actuations taken by Rodriguez Zapatero during these two years. And this new climate has been one of the elements which made possible the negotiations with ETA. But of course this could have not been possible without the police actuations that took place with Aznar. That weakened enough the band to take them in the political arena. So now we have a chance to finish with terrorism, and if PP claims that terrorism is a "state policy" why they are trying again and again to dinamitate this whole peace process? Because they can't allow Zapatero to get any single success. A positive declaration from the terrorist band would mean an inmediate victory for the PSOE. So the way of action to take is to critisice any single actuation of the government. Anyway, this is not going to bring back PP to power. They are unable to win next elections, cauz they need absolute majority to reinstall themselves in the Congress. The only good we are going to obtain from this 4 years of ultra right positions is a renovation in the PP that will bring the party to more moderated positions. After 2008 peace will comeback to political arena. Coco The problem with this whole confrontation and crispation of the actual political situation in Spain is the sole thought. You are WITH us or AGAINST us. There is no place for moderate positions. It is not possible to be a moderate. This is seem as a sign of weakness, and so you deserve any political entrustment.

I believe the actual Zapatero government has brought a new way of making politics to this country, and this cannot be denied, not even for those who may not agree with the actuations taken by Rodriguez Zapatero during these two years. And this new climate has been one of the elements which made possible the negotiations with ETA. But of course this could have not been possible without the police actuations that took place with Aznar. That weakened enough the band to take them in the political arena.

So now we have a chance to finish with terrorism, and if PP claims that terrorism is a "state policy" why they are trying again and again to dinamitate this whole peace process? Because they can't allow Zapatero to get any single success. A positive declaration from the terrorist band would mean an inmediate victory for the PSOE. So the way of action to take is to critisice any single actuation of the government.

Anyway, this is not going to bring back PP to power. They are unable to win next elections, cauz they need absolute majority to reinstall themselves in the Congress. The only good we are going to obtain from this 4 years of ultra right positions is a renovation in the PP that will bring the party to more moderated positions. After 2008 peace will comeback to political arena.

Coco

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]]> By: Aleksu http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-342 Aleksu Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:37:55 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-342 Alberto, if you think you insult me by what you said you are wrong, any insult from a right winger tells me that whatever I'm doing I'm doing it right if I get under the skin of people that talks about one violence but conveniently forgets about the violence generated by a political party like the Partido Popular. And we are not even talking about how many former Francoists are today hiding within the PP. Because then we would have to talk about how not a single Francoist ever saw the inside of a prison cell for the violence and the deaths they brought upon the Basque, Catalonyan and Spanish societies. Savater a left-winger? Don't make me laugh, the poor guy is so disconnected from reality that he is more of a joke that anything else. Alberto, if you think you insult me by what you said you are wrong, any insult from a right winger tells me that whatever I'm doing I'm doing it right if I get under the skin of people that talks about one violence but conveniently forgets about the violence generated by a political party like the Partido Popular.

And we are not even talking about how many former Francoists are today hiding within the PP. Because then we would have to talk about how not a single Francoist ever saw the inside of a prison cell for the violence and the deaths they brought upon the Basque, Catalonyan and Spanish societies.

Savater a left-winger?

Don't make me laugh, the poor guy is so disconnected from reality that he is more of a joke that anything else.

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]]> By: Graeme http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-341 Graeme Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:09:37 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-341 ah yes, the Aznar talks - ETA prisoners being moved nearer to the Basque country, talk of 'flexibility', Aznar with his references to the "Movimiento Nacional de Liberación Vasca". What they tried and failed to do themselves, they now don't want another government to succeed with - especially when they do not recognise the legitimacy of that government ah yes, the Aznar talks – ETA prisoners being moved nearer to the Basque country, talk of 'flexibility', Aznar with his references to the "Movimiento Nacional de Liberación Vasca". What they tried and failed to do themselves, they now don't want another government to succeed with – especially when they do not recognise the legitimacy of that government

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]]> By: Tom http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-340 Tom Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:27:34 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-340 You still haven't said which bit of the orignal post you disagree with. Possibly it stings to be defending a political party which is tearing itself apart. As I've made clear here before, I don't want the PP to implode as I don't think it would be the best thing for Spain. But I'm not about to stand by and watch them try to derail the peace process in their death throes. Do you have nightmares often? You still haven't said which bit of the orignal post you disagree with. Possibly it stings to be defending a political party which is tearing itself apart. As I've made clear here before, I don't want the PP to implode as I don't think it would be the best thing for Spain. But I'm not about to stand by and watch them try to derail the peace process in their death throes.

Do you have nightmares often?

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]]> By: Alberto http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-339 Alberto Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:52:45 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-339 The Aznar talks weren't "in the middle of a terrorist campaign" but during an earlier ceasefire brokered by the Basque nationalist right wing. Again, you don't seem to know much about this. And if we really must have a parallel with Northern Ireland then the Orangemen are the Basque nationalists, particularly their right wing, who control the autonomous community government, the police and massive wads of public funds which they use to pay for heavily ideologized media, education, culture and language policy. The Aznar talks weren't "in the middle of a terrorist campaign" but during an earlier ceasefire brokered by the Basque nationalist right wing. Again, you don't seem to know much about this.

And if we really must have a parallel with Northern Ireland then the Orangemen are the Basque nationalists, particularly their right wing, who control the autonomous community government, the police and massive wads of public funds which they use to pay for heavily ideologized media, education, culture and language policy.

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]]> By: Graeme http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-338 Graeme Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:37:27 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-338 Completely agree with your article, the PP is motivated by a desire for revenge combined with an attempt to bring down the government by any means necessary. The way in which they are spinning a web of conspiratorial fantasy around the 11th March bombings is mind-boggling, some of the stuff you find published on right-wing blogs shows tremendous contempt for the victims of those bombs. But then they have always been more bothered about losing power than about what happened on that day. There are some people not on the right opposed to negotiating with ETA, but unlike the PP, they were probably also opposed when Aznar was talking to ETA too in 1998 Completely agree with your article, the PP is motivated by a desire for revenge combined with an attempt to bring down the government by any means necessary. The way in which they are spinning a web of conspiratorial fantasy around the 11th March bombings is mind-boggling, some of the stuff you find published on right-wing blogs shows tremendous contempt for the victims of those bombs. But then they have always been more bothered about losing power than about what happened on that day. There are some people not on the right opposed to negotiating with ETA, but unlike the PP, they were probably also opposed when Aznar was talking to ETA too in 1998

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]]> By: Tom http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-337 Tom Wed, 14 Jun 2006 08:56:59 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-337 Are you trying to tell me that you really believe that the reason the PP has broken its pact over the peace-talks is because they don't want Zapatero sitting down with ETA? ETA haven't killed anyone for years. Aznar had secret talks with them years agao when they were still in the middle of their campaign. The point here is that the PP are acting on a purely party-political basis which is really unfortunate when it comes to such an important issue. They are literally playing the role of the Ulster Unionists, a minor party which many consider to be unhelpful extremists. Face it: the PP represent a diminishing constituency in Spanish society. The rest of us want to sit down, talk and get on with one another. Is it any surprise that Rajoy is ranked below even Carod Rovira among the political leaders here? Are you trying to tell me that you really believe that the reason the PP has broken its pact over the peace-talks is because they don't want Zapatero sitting down with ETA? ETA haven't killed anyone for years. Aznar had secret talks with them years agao when they were still in the middle of their campaign.

The point here is that the PP are acting on a purely party-political basis which is really unfortunate when it comes to such an important issue. They are literally playing the role of the Ulster Unionists, a minor party which many consider to be unhelpful extremists.

Face it: the PP represent a diminishing constituency in Spanish society. The rest of us want to sit down, talk and get on with one another. Is it any surprise that Rajoy is ranked below even Carod Rovira among the political leaders here?

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]]> By: Alberto http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-336 Alberto Wed, 14 Jun 2006 08:39:13 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-336 Well for one thing your rant just got linked by some nut on the fringes of the pro-ETA blogosphere. Do you feel comfortable with that? The PP has had a number of its members and sympathisers shot in the back of the head by ETA for holding views that go against the nationalist hegemony in the Basque Country, so it’s difficult to maintain that they have ‘no moral conviction’. The PP’s stance on the ETA talks is by no means exclusive to themselves. If you’re allergic to conservatives, try Fernando Savater for a well-argued left-wing take on why it’s not necessarily a good idea to sit down with the terrorists: http://www.elpais.es/articulo/opinion/Cuidado/saleroso//20060610elpepiopi_5/Tes/ Here’s a quote for you: “hay que ser muy bribón o muy obtuso para decir que quienes ponen condiciones a la negociación no quieren la paz”. Well for one thing your rant just got linked by some nut on the fringes of the pro-ETA blogosphere. Do you feel comfortable with that?

The PP has had a number of its members and sympathisers shot in the back of the head by ETA for holding views that go against the nationalist hegemony in the Basque Country, so it’s difficult to maintain that they have ‘no moral conviction’.

The PP’s stance on the ETA talks is by no means exclusive to themselves. If you’re allergic to conservatives, try Fernando Savater for a well-argued left-wing take on why it’s not necessarily a good idea to sit down with the terrorists: http://www.elpais.es/articulo/opinion/Cuidado/saleroso//20060610elpepiopi_5/Tes/

Here’s a quote for you: “hay que ser muy bribón o muy obtuso para decir que quienes ponen condiciones a la negociación no quieren la paz”.

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]]> By: Aleksu http://www.thebadrash.com/2006/06/11/the-pp-loves-victims-of-terrorism/#comment-335 Aleksu Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:59:50 +0000 http://thebadrash.com/?p=492#comment-335 Tom, you penned a great post, you are right on all accounts. You nailed the way the PP sees things so perfectly that you even got the irate response by a right winger. I will link your post to my own blog. Tom, you penned a great post, you are right on all accounts.

You nailed the way the PP sees things so perfectly that you even got the irate response by a right winger.

I will link your post to my own blog.

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