Comments on: Alternative poll: is requiring a nivell C certificate for all civil servants "the same" as the forced tattooing of Jewish prisoners in Nazi concentration camps? http://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/ A blog from Barcelona, Catalonia, covering politics, culture, society and more Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:18:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: "el Culito"http://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32983 "el Culito" Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:54:12 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32983 This is silly. Brains need not to enter a country so that the citizens of said country can benefit from them. What has value is not the brain itself, but the ideas that it produces, and those ideas can be freely transmitted at extremely low cost throughout the world, thanks to the internet. These days, having talent in your country has no practical advantage. Plus, I don't see other regions of Spain that don't require nivell C being exactly a magnet for brilliant, international minds, but hey maybe ah'm blind. This is silly. Brains need not to enter a country so that the citizens of said country can benefit from them. What has value is not the brain itself, but the ideas that it produces, and those ideas can be freely transmitted at extremely low cost throughout the world, thanks to the internet. These days, having talent in your country has no practical advantage. Plus, I don't see other regions of Spain that don't require nivell C being exactly a magnet for brilliant, international minds, but hey maybe ah'm blind.

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]]> By: boynamedsuehttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32937 boynamedsue Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:17:13 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32937 This is really quite offensivem I would hope that the person who said realises how stupid they sound. However, the level C thing is a classic example of Catalunya shooting itself in the foot. Catalan talent exits Catalunya freely, talent from the rest of the world can't enter Catalunya. Result: Brain drain, insularity and region which becomes more provincial and less international every year. This is really quite offensivem I would hope that the person who said realises how stupid they sound.

However, the level C thing is a classic example of Catalunya shooting itself in the foot. Catalan talent exits Catalunya freely, talent from the rest of the world can't enter Catalunya.

Result: Brain drain, insularity and region which becomes more provincial and less international every year.

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32927 Tom Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:20:46 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32927 UnHab - there are better ways for people to argue against the Nivell C requirement. But I'm not going to go into them. This post is all connected to a comment thread on another blog where someone named Anna Sevillé criticised the law for civil servants in Barcelona and finished her criticism with the line, "In the nazi concentration camps the prisioners had to have a number printed on their skin - for being considered a genuine catalan you need to provide your catalan certificate in order to work. Could anyone tell me where are the differences?" After I pointed out that this was a completely revolting thing to say, the blog's admin said that he agreed with her so I hightailed it. No point hanging around nutcases. So far, most of the arguments I've read about this law seem to boil down to (a) not liking Catalan or (b) a feeling of entitlement. Now, I don't have the Nivell C certificate (or whatever it's now called), and I couldn't apply for a civil service job (except perhaps President). But I think that's fair because my Catalan isn't good enough. Not only do I consider the law to be thoroughly un-Nazi, I actually think it's fair. UnHab – there are better ways for people to argue against the Nivell C requirement. But I'm not going to go into them.

This post is all connected to a comment thread on another blog where someone named Anna Sevillé criticised the law for civil servants in Barcelona and finished her criticism with the line, "In the nazi concentration camps the prisioners had to have a number printed on their skin – for being considered a genuine catalan you need to provide your catalan certificate in order to work. Could anyone tell me where are the differences?"

After I pointed out that this was a completely revolting thing to say, the blog's admin said that he agreed with her so I hightailed it. No point hanging around nutcases.

So far, most of the arguments I've read about this law seem to boil down to (a) not liking Catalan or (b) a feeling of entitlement. Now, I don't have the Nivell C certificate (or whatever it's now called), and I couldn't apply for a civil service job (except perhaps President). But I think that's fair because my Catalan isn't good enough. Not only do I consider the law to be thoroughly un-Nazi, I actually think it's fair.

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]]> By: UnHabhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32926 UnHab Wed, 12 Nov 2008 08:11:37 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32926 Whoever said it is -- I think -- consciously using misleading rhetorical tricks to rile people up. On one side, there are those who will automatically agree with the speaker because of a reactionary hatred towards Catalan nationalism, and on the other side because being compared to Nazis is always offensive, and in this case it is dishonest. But I have to question your technique too, Tom, because by presenting the side opposed to Nivel C requirements for civil servants as a bunch of paranoid whackjobs who call the Catalans Nazis is just as misleading. You're setting up a strawman that's easy to tear down. BTW - Who said that? Whoever said it is — I think — consciously using misleading rhetorical tricks to rile people up. On one side, there are those who will automatically agree with the speaker because of a reactionary hatred towards Catalan nationalism, and on the other side because being compared to Nazis is always offensive, and in this case it is dishonest.

But I have to question your technique too, Tom, because by presenting the side opposed to Nivel C requirements for civil servants as a bunch of paranoid whackjobs who call the Catalans Nazis is just as misleading. You're setting up a strawman that's easy to tear down.

BTW – Who said that?

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32875 Tom Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:58:53 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32875 Jeff H - don't be a twat. Jeff H – don't be a twat.

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]]> By: raytibbittshttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32874 raytibbitts Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:48:24 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32874 Well, Jeff, then you might consider moving somewhere they don't need you to speak a third language. There are government jobs in Madrid and down here in the south, too. Plus, they still will let you waste time surfing the net at work. Something tells me Franco wouldn't have so many jobs as they do now. Finally, yes, it does bother me when people use the concentration camp comparison. My great-grandfather got his family out of Germany before they started rounding people up, but it still gets to me to think that some of his relatives weren't so lucky. By the way, I'm not ashamed of my name. Well, Jeff, then you might consider moving somewhere they don't need you to speak a third language. There are government jobs in Madrid and down here in the south, too. Plus, they still will let you waste time surfing the net at work. Something tells me Franco wouldn't have so many jobs as they do now.

Finally, yes, it does bother me when people use the concentration camp comparison. My great-grandfather got his family out of Germany before they started rounding people up, but it still gets to me to think that some of his relatives weren't so lucky.

By the way, I'm not ashamed of my name.

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]]> By: Jeff Hhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32868 Jeff H Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:04:00 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32868 I think rabbitybits has got his knickers in a twist. I'm also fed up with these Catalan fucks requiring Nivell C to work in their offices. I wish Franco was back in business. I think rabbitybits has got his knickers in a twist. I'm also fed up with these Catalan fucks requiring Nivell C to work in their offices. I wish Franco was back in business.

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]]> By: Rabhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32457 Rab Wed, 05 Nov 2008 19:28:59 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32457 The rantings of a resentful, ignorant, Catalonophobe person. Nothing to worry about, the blogosphere is plenty of them. Despite being a resident in the UK since 1999, when I started a MBA at university, I had to sit a language test to show that I could communicate with fellow students and staff. Surely, the same should be expected of any civil servant that needs to communicate with the tax-paying public. The rantings of a resentful, ignorant, Catalonophobe person. Nothing to worry about, the blogosphere is plenty of them.
Despite being a resident in the UK since 1999, when I started a MBA at university, I had to sit a language test to show that I could communicate with fellow students and staff.

Surely, the same should be expected of any civil servant that needs to communicate with the tax-paying public.

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32448 Tom Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:52:21 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32448 Daniel, I'm just telling it how it is. Welsh speaking has definitely increased over the last thirty years and the language seems to be off the 'nearly dead' list. At the same time, it is much harder for an English-speaking person to learn Welsh than for a Spanish-speaking person to learn Catalan. Daniel, I'm just telling it how it is. Welsh speaking has definitely increased over the last thirty years and the language seems to be off the 'nearly dead' list. At the same time, it is much harder for an English-speaking person to learn Welsh than for a Spanish-speaking person to learn Catalan.

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]]> By: Daniel Vallshttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32443 Daniel Valls Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:34:13 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32443 And you find this normal and OK? What a loss. I hope Catalans don´t go the same way. And you find this normal and OK? What a loss. I hope Catalans don´t go the same way.

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32410 Tom Wed, 05 Nov 2008 07:09:19 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32410 @Daniel - depends where in Wales you go. There are a hell of a lot of Welsh people who never speak a word of Cymraeg, boyo. @Daniel – depends where in Wales you go. There are a hell of a lot of Welsh people who never speak a word of Cymraeg, boyo.

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]]> By: Daniel Vallshttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32386 Daniel Valls Wed, 05 Nov 2008 01:28:44 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32386 As a Catalan myself, I can honestly say that the comparison is not worth a comment. However, I would like to express my discomfort to people who have been living here for 40 50 years and have not taken a moment to learn the local language. I can understand a foreign guy comming who was not well informed about Catalunya having a different language and took some time to learn Spanish and then found himslef in a bit of a situation. But I cannot understand the thousands of Galicians, Andalucians et al who came here to work in the late 40s and still refuse to say a word in catalan. I can honestly tell you that if you go to, say, wales although you will have to speak english to get along, it won´t be long before you are trying out some welsh with the locals. As a Catalan myself, I can honestly say that the comparison is not worth a comment. However, I would like to express my discomfort to people who have been living here for 40 50 years and have not taken a moment to learn the local language. I can understand a foreign guy comming who was not well informed about Catalunya having a different language and took some time to learn Spanish and then found himslef in a bit of a situation. But I cannot understand the thousands of Galicians, Andalucians et al who came here to work in the late 40s and still refuse to say a word in catalan. I can honestly tell you that if you go to, say, wales although you will have to speak english to get along, it won´t be long before you are trying out some welsh with the locals.

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]]> By: Donalhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32316 Donal Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:56:33 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32316 This reminds me of the simpsons where a woman suddenly turns arouns and shouts "and you, sir, are worse than hitler". these comparisons belittle the suffering of WWII and do nothing to illuminate the facts of the situation in catalunya. Personally I think these restrictions are a bit pointless - in 50 years we'll all be speaking english anyway... :) This reminds me of the simpsons where a woman suddenly turns arouns and shouts "and you, sir, are worse than hitler".

these comparisons belittle the suffering of WWII and do nothing to illuminate the facts of the situation in catalunya.

Personally I think these restrictions are a bit pointless – in 50 years we'll all be speaking english anyway… :)

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]]> By: Neilhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32287 Neil Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:27:55 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32287 A truly despicable "comparison" it is indeed - from a native Spanish speaker maybe? ("prisioners"). raytibbits's analysis may arrive at the correct conclusion but has a fundamental flaw within it: A tested level of ability in an official language does not show that one can communicate in all official languages (plural) which I think is implied in his response. Could be revealing to know if the person quoted would have a problem with an equivalent level of Spanish also being a prerequisite, or wether that would also have nazi undertones. A truly despicable "comparison" it is indeed – from a native Spanish speaker maybe? ("prisioners"). raytibbits's analysis may arrive at the correct conclusion but has a fundamental flaw within it: A tested level of ability in an official language does not show that one can communicate in all official languages (plural) which I think is implied in his response. Could be revealing to know if the person quoted would have a problem with an equivalent level of Spanish also being a prerequisite, or wether that would also have nazi undertones.

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2008/11/03/alternative-poll-is-requiring-a-nivell-c-certificate-for-all-civil-servants-the-same-as-the-forced-tattooing-of-jewish-prisoners-in-nazi-concentration-camps/#comment-32266 Tom Mon, 03 Nov 2008 16:44:41 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1080#comment-32266 Hi Ray, it was actually written by a woman but yes, you're right in your analysis. Hi Ray, it was actually written by a woman but yes, you're right in your analysis.

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