Comments on: British patriotism alive and kicking on Facebook http://www.thebadrash.com/2009/09/10/british-patriotism-alive-and-kicking-on-facebook/ A blog from Barcelona, Catalonia, covering politics, culture, society and more Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:18:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Rabhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2009/09/10/british-patriotism-alive-and-kicking-on-facebook/#comment-70725 Rab Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:29:11 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1407#comment-70725 I think it is really sad how the BNP have hijacked the English flag for years, thus preventing the great majority of good English folk from using it. I have English friends and they really struggle to come to terms with using their national flag in public. Any celebration (the Ashes for example) and they immediately feel guilty and uncomfortable having a flag visible outside a sports ground. The same pretty much at rugby matches. A few years ago I witnessed a superb anecdote: an English rugby fan hid his small flag in his anorak after coming out of a 6 Nations game at Murrayfield, saying to his mate “I don’t want any hassle, you know…”. A Scotland fan walking next to them heard it and ticked him off for hiding his flag and kind of made him take it out again. I was with an Irish friend and we all took the English guy and his friend to the pub to make them feel better about his own national flag (any excuse really) and stop feeling guilty because of the BNP arseholes. The English need to get their flag back from the BNP but it is going to be quite difficult. Unlike Toni, admittedly from quite a distance in Scotland, I do think that things are changing, but progress is very very slow. Neil: not sure how is your Catalan but this Wiki article is a very good start: http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estelada (or summarised English translation). I think it is really sad how the BNP have hijacked the English flag for years, thus preventing the great majority of good English folk from using it. I have English friends and they really struggle to come to terms with using their national flag in public. Any celebration (the Ashes for example) and they immediately feel guilty and uncomfortable having a flag visible outside a sports ground. The same pretty much at rugby matches. A few years ago I witnessed a superb anecdote: an English rugby fan hid his small flag in his anorak after coming out of a 6 Nations game at Murrayfield, saying to his mate “I don’t want any hassle, you know…”. A Scotland fan walking next to them heard it and ticked him off for hiding his flag and kind of made him take it out again. I was with an Irish friend and we all took the English guy and his friend to the pub to make them feel better about his own national flag (any excuse really) and stop feeling guilty because of the BNP arseholes.

The English need to get their flag back from the BNP but it is going to be quite difficult. Unlike Toni, admittedly from quite a distance in Scotland, I do think that things are changing, but progress is very very slow.

Neil: not sure how is your Catalan but this Wiki article is a very good start:

http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estelada

(or summarised English translation).

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]]> By: Neilhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2009/09/10/british-patriotism-alive-and-kicking-on-facebook/#comment-70576 Neil Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:51:42 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1407#comment-70576 I Agree 100% Tom. I'd add that just because someone is displaying a George's Cross, it doesn't mean that they are a supporter of the BNP or anything like. The recent England ashes victory caused a cricket mad friend of mine to put his on display. No political meaning at all. My real point is, if you are English and want to display your genuine patriotism in the normal flag waving way, which flag do you use? The modern day far right appear to have appropriated both the GC and UJ as their own. Maybe the answer is for the English to be ashamed of being English and put a stop to any ideas of patriotism. In Catalonia, "flag waving" can be much more specific than in England. Several variations were born with specific original meanings. Crucial difference though is that, at least to my knowledge, they haven't all been hijacked by the far right, so patriotic flag waving here can't be a bad thing. I have been told about a couple of the different versions but am not sure how accurate it is. Based on that I prefer the standard Senyera (just the stripes) or Estelada (proper name? white star, blue triangle) to the "paisos Catalans" (name? red star). However, as I have found quite a lot of conflicting stories, I'd welcome any pointers to some reliable sources regarding this. I Agree 100% Tom. I'd add that just because someone is displaying a George's Cross, it doesn't mean that they are a supporter of the BNP or anything like. The recent England ashes victory caused a cricket mad friend of mine to put his on display. No political meaning at all. My real point is, if you are English and want to display your genuine patriotism in the normal flag waving way, which flag do you use? The modern day far right appear to have appropriated both the GC and UJ as their own. Maybe the answer is for the English to be ashamed of being English and put a stop to any ideas of patriotism.

In Catalonia, "flag waving" can be much more specific than in England. Several variations were born with specific original meanings. Crucial difference though is that, at least to my knowledge, they haven't all been hijacked by the far right, so patriotic flag waving here can't be a bad thing. I have been told about a couple of the different versions but am not sure how accurate it is. Based on that I prefer the standard Senyera (just the stripes) or Estelada (proper name? white star, blue triangle) to the "paisos Catalans" (name? red star). However, as I have found quite a lot of conflicting stories, I'd welcome any pointers to some reliable sources regarding this.

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]]> By: Grahamhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2009/09/10/british-patriotism-alive-and-kicking-on-facebook/#comment-70567 Graham Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:29:41 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1407#comment-70567 Why is it that people who define themselves as English and proud like this are totally illiterate, always unemployed and blaming it on others and incapable of any type of rational thought? (Quick check for typos just in case) Why is it that people who define themselves as English and proud like this are totally illiterate, always unemployed and blaming it on others and incapable of any type of rational thought?
(Quick check for typos just in case)

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2009/09/10/british-patriotism-alive-and-kicking-on-facebook/#comment-70564 Tom Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:41:10 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1407#comment-70564 Well, Neil, it's interesting. It would be easy to say that all flags and all versions of patriotism are exactly the same thing, and that therefore any display of these things should cause concern. Personally, I see that as a pretty simplistic and misleading approach. Firstly, except on Fair day and probably royal coronations, Modbury isn't a town that I'm used to seeing festooned with Union Jacks or England flags. (N.b. I say 'England' flag because it wasn't a simple St. George's cross: it incorporated the word 'ENGLAND' and various other national symbols). So this is a recent development there and, quite apart from cheapening the place, it seems to be linked to an increase in 'British pride' that coincides with increasing political success for the BNP. It is this second point that concerns me the most. While there are a few people who seem to feel threatened by seeing Senyeres and Estelades about, I've never ever felt like that. And I'm an immigrant here. Perhaps it's all a double standard. I'm more inclined to think that the Union Jack, with its long association with imperial slaughter and then suburban fascism is intrinsically a more frightening symbol. It's certainly a very ugly flag. Well, Neil, it's interesting. It would be easy to say that all flags and all versions of patriotism are exactly the same thing, and that therefore any display of these things should cause concern.

Personally, I see that as a pretty simplistic and misleading approach. Firstly, except on Fair day and probably royal coronations, Modbury isn't a town that I'm used to seeing festooned with Union Jacks or England flags. (N.b. I say 'England' flag because it wasn't a simple St. George's cross: it incorporated the word 'ENGLAND' and various other national symbols). So this is a recent development there and, quite apart from cheapening the place, it seems to be linked to an increase in 'British pride' that coincides with increasing political success for the BNP.

It is this second point that concerns me the most. While there are a few people who seem to feel threatened by seeing Senyeres and Estelades about, I've never ever felt like that. And I'm an immigrant here. Perhaps it's all a double standard. I'm more inclined to think that the Union Jack, with its long association with imperial slaughter and then suburban fascism is intrinsically a more frightening symbol. It's certainly a very ugly flag.

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]]> By: Neilhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2009/09/10/british-patriotism-alive-and-kicking-on-facebook/#comment-70558 Neil Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:03:47 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1407#comment-70558 I can currently see 3 Catalan flags, 1 "English" flag (st. Jordi) and 1 that is unknown to me. Should I also be concerned Tom? I can currently see 3 Catalan flags, 1 "English" flag (st. Jordi) and 1 that is unknown to me. Should I also be concerned Tom?

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]]> By: Tonihttp://www.thebadrash.com/2009/09/10/british-patriotism-alive-and-kicking-on-facebook/#comment-70555 Toni Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:35:48 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1407#comment-70555 My imprerssion is that nothing has really changed. Have you read SOMETHING TO TELL YOU by Hanif Kureishi? Britain, and London in particular, can be a lovely place where many different races and cultures mingle but it is also a place where immigrants mostly live in suburban guetthos and don't really mix up with WASPs, only on a superficial level ... It is my view, after having lived in the UK for 20 years. Then again, don't think is that different to any other country, for that matter... My imprerssion is that nothing has really changed. Have you read SOMETHING TO TELL YOU by Hanif Kureishi? Britain, and London in particular, can be a lovely place where many different races and cultures mingle but it is also a place where immigrants mostly live in suburban guetthos and don't really mix up with WASPs, only on a superficial level … It is my view, after having lived in the UK for 20 years. Then again, don't think is that different to any other country, for that matter…

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