Comments on: A march in Barcelona that surprised everyone #11S2012 http://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/ A blog from Barcelona, Catalonia, about politics, society and culture Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:40:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Ernesthttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-170694 Ernest Wed, 07 Nov 2012 23:25:22 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-170694 I agree. I'd like to point out, though, that if Catalonia suddenly was sucked into a black hole, it wouldn't make any difference as far as the constitution of Spain is concerned, because there is no reference whatsoever to Catalonia in the constitution. The problematic articles, in my opinion, are two: one that mentions the "indivisibility of the Spanish nation" and another that says that the army is responsible for defending the "territorial integrity of Spain". I suppose it all depends on how you read these articles. I think that probably any lawyer can come up with a creative interpretation of these passages that would allow Catalonia to secede legally without changing the constitution, just like now gay people are allowed to marry thanks to a reinterpretation of the word "marriage" that appeared in this very same constitution. I agree. I'd like to point out, though, that if Catalonia suddenly was sucked into a black hole, it wouldn't make any difference as far as the constitution of Spain is concerned, because there is no reference whatsoever to Catalonia in the constitution. The problematic articles, in my opinion, are two: one that mentions the "indivisibility of the Spanish nation" and another that says that the army is responsible for defending the "territorial integrity of Spain". I suppose it all depends on how you read these articles. I think that probably any lawyer can come up with a creative interpretation of these passages that would allow Catalonia to secede legally without changing the constitution, just like now gay people are allowed to marry thanks to a reinterpretation of the word "marriage" that appeared in this very same constitution.

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]]> By: ianhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-170063 ian Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:03:35 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-170063 "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?" Looks as if we're in for an entertaining dialectic ride as Constitutionalists cling on to the indivisibility clause of Spain's territory, while Separatists, democratically call victory. This is no go nonsense, from the rest of the EU's point of view, so all the support the two sides can muster from the EU (London and Edinburgh most), UN, UNESCO and anyone else, the better. After all, knowledge is power. Recognition will swing fondness towards the peaceful and democratic separatist movement in time i guess. Still, the dubious yet unique logic behind the indivisibility factor for Spain's territory is hampering Catalunya's independance as do "If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?" dialectics (Pink Floyd). Indeed, how can Catalunya be independant if the Spanish constitution doesn't allow it? Aha! now this is the main argument Constitutionalists brandish. Sure is logical. Some consider this a "trampa de fireta", but it's a major stumble block legally. The funny thing is that Spain will actually do better without Catalunya, the PP will be able to implement its reforms without having always to take Catalunya into consideration. cheers! "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?"
Looks as if we're in for an entertaining dialectic ride as Constitutionalists cling on to the indivisibility clause of Spain's territory, while Separatists, democratically call victory.
This is no go nonsense, from the rest of the EU's point of view, so all the support the two sides can muster from the EU (London and Edinburgh most), UN, UNESCO and anyone else, the better.
After all, knowledge is power. Recognition will swing fondness towards the peaceful and democratic separatist movement in time i guess.
Still, the dubious yet unique logic behind the indivisibility factor for Spain's territory is hampering Catalunya's independance as do "If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?" dialectics (Pink Floyd).
Indeed, how can Catalunya be independant if the Spanish constitution doesn't allow it? Aha! now this is the main argument Constitutionalists brandish.
Sure is logical. Some consider this a "trampa de fireta", but it's a major stumble block legally.
The funny thing is that Spain will actually do better without Catalunya, the PP will be able to implement its reforms without having always to take Catalunya into consideration.
cheers!

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]]> By: ianhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-170052 ian Sun, 04 Nov 2012 22:03:33 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-170052 Amazing to observe how this agressive intolerance is evolving though. Not least from the "Constitutionalists"... Never have so many vowed loyalty to a document so few have read! cheers! Amazing to observe how this agressive intolerance is evolving though. Not least from the "Constitutionalists"…
Never have so many vowed loyalty to a document so few have read!
cheers!

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-163014 Tom Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:52:14 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-163014 Interestingly, Mas has just said that he "wouldn't stand for reelection" if Catalonia became independent. A nifty political maneuver, I'd say. Interestingly, Mas has just said that he "wouldn't stand for reelection" if Catalonia became independent. A nifty political maneuver, I'd say.

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]]> By: Elections this autumn for Catalonia | Barcelona & Catalonia blog | thebadrash.comhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-162302 Elections this autumn for Catalonia | Barcelona & Catalonia blog | thebadrash.com Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:53:28 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-162302 [...] the essence now. They aim to benefit from the upswing in support for separatism seen at last week's demonstration in Barcelona. They probably also fear the Spanish government invoking section 155 of the Spanish [...] [...] the essence now. They aim to benefit from the upswing in support for separatism seen at last week's demonstration in Barcelona. They probably also fear the Spanish government invoking section 155 of the Spanish [...]

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]]> By: Murphhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161887 Murph Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:42:18 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161887 Thanks for info re Kosovo - I'd like to see exactly where it could serve as a model for Catalonia Republic. The constitution, I mean, not the way they got there... Thanks for info re Kosovo – I'd like to see exactly where it could serve as a model for Catalonia Republic. The constitution, I mean, not the way they got there…

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]]> By: Candidehttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161886 Candide Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:34:41 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161886 Hilarious, you really have resisted the temptation to say you're not Spanish. Good points, especially in you last comment, here not quoted. Rights, once attained, cannot be taken away. What the International Community thinks about the matters you raise can be seen for instance in those parts of ex-Yugoslavia where it had an administrative role, Bosnia and Kosovo. The Constitution of Kosovo establishes Serbian as the other official language, alongside Albanian. And that even after the atrocities committed by Serb forces, and even though Serbs make up only a maximum of 10% of the population. In Article 1 of the Constitution of Kosovo there also is the provision: "The Republic of Kosovo shall have no territorial claims against, and shall seek no union with, any State or part of any State. " http://www.kushtetutakosoves.info/repository/docs/Constitution.of.the.Republic.of.Kosovo.pdf (Oh, and mind that they call it "Kosovo" in English. Catalan nationalists now like to use the Albanian "Kosova" or "Kosovë", for obvious reasons) Hilarious, you really have resisted the temptation to say you're not Spanish.

Good points, especially in you last comment, here not quoted. Rights, once attained, cannot be taken away. What the International Community thinks about the matters you raise can be seen for instance in those parts of ex-Yugoslavia where it had an administrative role, Bosnia and Kosovo.

The Constitution of Kosovo establishes Serbian as the other official language, alongside Albanian. And that even after the atrocities committed by Serb forces, and even though Serbs make up only a maximum of 10% of the population.

In Article 1 of the Constitution of Kosovo there also is the provision: "The Republic of Kosovo shall have no territorial claims against, and shall seek no union with, any State or part of any State. "

http://www.kushtetutakosoves.info/repository/docs/Constitution.of.the.Republic.of.Kosovo.pdf

(Oh, and mind that they call it "Kosovo" in English. Catalan nationalists now like to use the Albanian "Kosova" or "Kosovë", for obvious reasons)

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]]> By: ejhhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161873 ejh Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:27:36 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161873 There's going to be a lot more aggressive intolerance where that came from. There's going to be a lot more aggressive intolerance where that came from.

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]]> By: Murphhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161872 Murph Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:19:32 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161872 I concur with Candide about this lack of real dialogue both within the independence movement and between Catalan and Spanish voices. In my opinion - as someone who has been working in favour of Catalan independence for a couple of years now - this lack of dialogue and understanding for issues above and beyond the feud with Madrid is the independence movement's worst enemy. Take for example this "dialogue" in the comments section of La Vanguardia today between myself and Andreu Puig: http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20120916/54350455403/mas-incorporara-el-estado-propio-en-su-programa-electoral.html Murphy Las dos condiciones imprescindibles para la aceptación de Catalunya como país propio en la opinión pública exterior - la opinión mundial - son : 1) Una garantía de derechos humanos, especialmente culturales, es decir, una garantía del bilingüalismo y protección por los derechos de los no-catalanoparlantes, y 2) una garantía del territorio actual, es decir, una renuncia a la plataforma de la ANC reclamando "Els Països Catalans", en consideración a su imposibilidad y su condición de potencialmente expansionista. Andreu Puig Perdona pero es al revés: los no catalanoparlantes (foráneos o descendientes de foráneos) lo que tienen que hacer es integrarse en Catalunya. Es lógico. Yo no me puedo ir a Flandes y exigir que se reconozca el catalán, y que se me respete que yo soy catalanoparlante. Del mismo modo no pueden venir aquí andaluces, murcianos, sudamericanos, etc y exigir que se les respete que son hispanohablantes. El idioma de aquí es el catalán, desde hace mil años, y a quién no le guste que s'hi posi fulles Murphy Una respuesta que si repetido mucho, condena el movimiento indepedendenista al fracaso total, tanto por via electoral como por via diplomática. Andreu Puig ¿Realmente es tan difícil de entender? En tu idioma hay un refrán que está muy bien: "Allí donde fueres, haz lo que vieres". A mi no se me pasaría por la cabeza irme a vivir a Toledo y pretender que mis hijos tengan escuela en catalán, que yo me pueda dirigir a la administración en catalán etc. ¿Cuál es vuestro problema? Es que no entiendo tu lógica (continues... not quoted here) Notice that Mr Puig immediately supposes that I am Spanish because I'm concerned about the rights of non-Catalan speakers. Moreover he makes my personal argument "vuestro problema". In other words, though I'm voicing a personal opinion framed within the ideas of international law and outsider acceptance, in his mind I'm just playing "Madrid vs Barcelona". More dangerously, his argument very quickly degenerates into "if you don't like it, sod off". And believe me, that's one of the more respectful discussions I've been in on these issues. I concur with Candide about this lack of real dialogue both within the independence movement and between Catalan and Spanish voices. In my opinion – as someone who has been working in favour of Catalan independence for a couple of years now – this lack of dialogue and understanding for issues above and beyond the feud with Madrid is the independence movement's worst enemy. Take for example this "dialogue" in the comments section of La Vanguardia today between myself and Andreu Puig:
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20120916/54350455403/mas-incorporara-el-estado-propio-en-su-programa-electoral.html

Murphy
Las dos condiciones imprescindibles para la aceptación de Catalunya como país propio en la opinión pública exterior – la opinión mundial – son : 1) Una garantía de derechos humanos, especialmente culturales, es decir, una garantía del bilingüalismo y protección por los derechos de los no-catalanoparlantes, y 2) una garantía del territorio actual, es decir, una renuncia a la plataforma de la ANC reclamando "Els Països Catalans", en consideración a su imposibilidad y su condición de potencialmente expansionista.

Andreu Puig
Perdona pero es al revés: los no catalanoparlantes (foráneos o descendientes de foráneos) lo que tienen que hacer es integrarse en Catalunya. Es lógico. Yo no me puedo ir a Flandes y exigir que se reconozca el catalán, y que se me respete que yo soy catalanoparlante. Del mismo modo no pueden venir aquí andaluces, murcianos, sudamericanos, etc y exigir que se les respete que son hispanohablantes. El idioma de aquí es el catalán, desde hace mil años, y a quién no le guste que s'hi posi fulles

Murphy
Una respuesta que si repetido mucho, condena el movimiento indepedendenista al fracaso total, tanto por via electoral como por via diplomática.

Andreu Puig
¿Realmente es tan difícil de entender? En tu idioma hay un refrán que está muy bien: "Allí donde fueres, haz lo que vieres". A mi no se me pasaría por la cabeza irme a vivir a Toledo y pretender que mis hijos tengan escuela en catalán, que yo me pueda dirigir a la administración en catalán etc. ¿Cuál es vuestro problema? Es que no entiendo tu lógica

(continues… not quoted here)

Notice that Mr Puig immediately supposes that I am Spanish because I'm concerned about the rights of non-Catalan speakers. Moreover he makes my personal argument "vuestro problema". In other words, though I'm voicing a personal opinion framed within the ideas of international law and outsider acceptance, in his mind I'm just playing "Madrid vs Barcelona". More dangerously, his argument very quickly degenerates into "if you don't like it, sod off".
And believe me, that's one of the more respectful discussions I've been in on these issues.

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]]> By: Candidehttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161868 Candide Sun, 16 Sep 2012 14:18:50 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161868 You have not noticed the lack of dialogue in Catalonia? The consistent drawing on experiences of other countries with the sole intention of confirming one's preconceived ideas (which, truth be told, is an all-Spanish phenomenon)? The Catalan separatists' intellectual inbreeding, their almost autistic attitude? Not that they are worse than any other group in this debate. But how can you call what anybody does here a progress? You have not noticed the lack of dialogue in Catalonia? The consistent drawing on experiences of other countries with the sole intention of confirming one's preconceived ideas (which, truth be told, is an all-Spanish phenomenon)? The Catalan separatists' intellectual inbreeding, their almost autistic attitude?

Not that they are worse than any other group in this debate. But how can you call what anybody does here a progress?

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]]> By: Graemehttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161771 Graeme Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:20:53 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161771 Hi Tom. Thanks for blogging & keeping the issues highlighted. I genuinely think that given the [lack of] dialogue within Spain, the only real progress will be from creating the international profile to support the movement within Catalonia. I'm rather surprised and delighted by the stir that Tuesday's events have had in the Guardian! Keep up the good work Hi Tom. Thanks for blogging & keeping the issues highlighted. I genuinely think that given the [lack of] dialogue within Spain, the only real progress will be from creating the international profile to support the movement within Catalonia. I'm rather surprised and delighted by the stir that Tuesday's events have had in the Guardian!

Keep up the good work

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]]> By: Murphhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161769 Murph Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:39:52 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161769 The big - and I do mean big - problems for an international acceptance of unilateral secession are two: 1) Monolingualism - the Catalan movement must pledge to respect Castilian language rights. Any oppression of these rights would rightly be seen as a violation of human rights by Catalonia. 2) The Catalan Lands claims. These are not as you think Tom held by a small minority; they are the central plank of the ANC-AMI movement. These claims naturally make any claim to Catalan sovereignty invalid, as you and any ratonal person sees instantly. But it is very much there in the ERC-ANC-AMI programme, and on their posters and propaganda. I'm desperately trying to get them to change these two areas, and failing badly so far. More later The big – and I do mean big – problems for an international acceptance of unilateral secession are two:
1) Monolingualism – the Catalan movement must pledge to respect Castilian language rights. Any oppression of these rights would rightly be seen as a violation of human rights by Catalonia.
2) The Catalan Lands claims. These are not as you think Tom held by a small minority; they are the central plank of the ANC-AMI movement.
These claims naturally make any claim to Catalan sovereignty invalid, as you and any ratonal person sees instantly.
But it is very much there in the ERC-ANC-AMI programme, and on their posters and propaganda.
I'm desperately trying to get them to change these two areas, and failing badly so far.
More later

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]]> By: ejhhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161625 ejh Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:35:09 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161625 "It seems like what you're saying is that it's simply not worth trying because Mas is bad" No, what it's saying is - in what direction is this actually likely to go? I take a much, much more pessimistic view. "It seems like what you're saying is that it's simply not worth trying because Mas is bad"

No, what it's saying is – in what direction is this actually likely to go? I take a much, much more pessimistic view.

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]]> By: Candidehttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161623 Candide Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:27:43 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161623 I have re-read that old debate. You'll also find there that the (comparatively) nicest words I say are about CiU. I'm not making this point one of likes and dislikes. I sincerely believe in the Messiah effect. Over the past years there has been an insistent call for a leader of the separatist movement. None appeared until the demo. Now it's Mas. Everybody is now bowing to him, especially since his appearance in Madrid yesterday. He did do a good job there, at the very least in terms of propaganda. Even I liked many things he said, while before his antics about Catalans as the Germans of Spain, Holland of the South, Massachusetts of Europa etc etc sounded more like propagand'uh. He's growing with the challenge, one's got to hand him that. If he manages to pull this through -which I do doubt, and I still fear there are bad times ahead- but just for the sake of the argument... He is the only one who can push it through, if he succeeds he'll be a complete hero. He will be seen as The One who has righted the Centuries Old Wrong. And with CDC he has a formidable apparatus at his service. Well, and with the Generalitat, this overbearing administration which already Pujol played so well. This is the historical perspective from which I come when I say that we'd have CiU country for decades. I have re-read that old debate. You'll also find there that the (comparatively) nicest words I say are about CiU.

I'm not making this point one of likes and dislikes. I sincerely believe in the Messiah effect. Over the past years there has been an insistent call for a leader of the separatist movement. None appeared until the demo. Now it's Mas. Everybody is now bowing to him, especially since his appearance in Madrid yesterday. He did do a good job there, at the very least in terms of propaganda. Even I liked many things he said, while before his antics about Catalans as the Germans of Spain, Holland of the South, Massachusetts of Europa etc etc sounded more like propagand'uh.

He's growing with the challenge, one's got to hand him that.

If he manages to pull this through -which I do doubt, and I still fear there are bad times ahead- but just for the sake of the argument… He is the only one who can push it through, if he succeeds he'll be a complete hero. He will be seen as The One who has righted the Centuries Old Wrong. And with CDC he has a formidable apparatus at his service. Well, and with the Generalitat, this overbearing administration which already Pujol played so well.

This is the historical perspective from which I come when I say that we'd have CiU country for decades.

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]]> By: Tomhttp://www.thebadrash.com/2012/09/12/a-march-in-barcelona-that-surprised-everyone-11s2012/#comment-161619 Tom Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:05:29 +0000 http://www.thebadrash.com/?p=1971#comment-161619 I'm expecting the left to take charge pretty quickly. Another tripartit, I guess. If the PSC finally breaks from the PSOE I think it'll regain respect from a lot of voters who stayed at home last time. But this argument strikes me as being rather specious. It seems like what you're saying is that it's simply not worth trying because Mas is bad. I don't like Mas, you should know that. And I didn't hear anybody on the march chanting his name. Maybe that will change, I suppose. I won't change my position on him, though, which you can read <a href="http://www.thebadrash.com/2010/11/21/28n-catalan-elections-2010-who-to-vote-for/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I'm expecting the left to take charge pretty quickly. Another tripartit, I guess. If the PSC finally breaks from the PSOE I think it'll regain respect from a lot of voters who stayed at home last time.

But this argument strikes me as being rather specious. It seems like what you're saying is that it's simply not worth trying because Mas is bad. I don't like Mas, you should know that. And I didn't hear anybody on the march chanting his name. Maybe that will change, I suppose. I won't change my position on him, though, which you can read here.

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